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Small Business Bestie
Entrepreneurship is hard, and sometimes we could use a friend to walk a mile in our shoes. Small Business Bestie is here to provide that friendship, support, and inspiration that small business owners need from time to time.
Small Business Bestie
31: Building Connections in Autism Care with Dr. Gwen Martin Perryman
Join us as we sit down with the remarkable Dr. Gwen Martin Perryman, a trailblazer in the world of autism therapy and a fierce advocate for children with developmental challenges. Dr. Gwen's journey from working with at-risk youth to establishing her own practice is a testament to the power of passion and dedication. She shares a deeply impactful story of encountering a non-verbal child in need, a moment that propelled her to specialize in autism, transforming her approach to therapy and business. 🗣️ As she narrates her entrepreneurial path, Dr. Gwen reveals how she crafted a practice that offers Applied Behavior Analysis on her own terms, allowing her to make a more significant difference in her community. 👏🧠🩵
In our conversation, we uncover the intricacies of the comprehensive therapy programs at Dr. Gwen's practice, which span four locations and emphasize personalized care for children. From one-on-one therapy sessions to collaborative efforts with speech pathologists, her team tackles everything from nonverbal communication to social skill development. 📚 The episode highlights the importance of vulnerability, as we discuss how sharing personal and professional challenges can build profound connections. Dr. Gwen also introduces Conduct Curb, her innovative venture promoting behavioral growth by partnering with families.👨👩👧👧 This episode promises to be a compelling look at the intersection of compassion, business acumen, and the relentless pursuit of bettering the lives of children with autism. 🧩🌷
Check out Dr. Gwen Martin Perryman and Conduct Curb!
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gwen-martin-perryman-a014a51a2/
Conduct Curb Website- https://conductcurb.com/
Conduct Curb Facbeook-https://www.facebook.com/ConductCurb.AndersonAutismBehaviorCenter/
Instagram- https://www.instagram.com/conductcurb.aba/
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Small Business Bestie is edited by Bourbon Barrel Podcasting
Welcome to the Small Business Bestie podcast. I'm your host, michelle. We are creating community and coaching women entrepreneurs, and we are so glad that you're here. Let's meet this week's small business bestie. Today, dr Gwen Martin Perryman is sitting down to have a chat with me, and the circumstances that brought us into this room together are absurd and so amazing. I love it so much. So we have been given this opportunity to chat via a mutual friend and acquaintance, ms Raquel Carter, so she has offered up her space and even her time slot for us to chat, and I know it's going to be so valuable to everyone listening. So, gwen, if you would mind, just tell everybody a little bit about who you are and what you do.
Gwen Martin Perryman:Okay, so I work with children diagnosed with pervasive developmental disorders, specifically autism. I have been working with this population for about 27, 28, 29, for a lot of years, and I love it. I will never do anything different. I will always work with this population in some type of capacity. I like to tell people that I started working with autism before it became popular or before you even knew what, before most people knew what it was.
Michelle Smock:Yeah, so I I'm probably guilty Like I come from a pretty small town and I definitely did not know what autism was until the big like campaign started coming out with the autism speak campaigns and I know that it's. It wasn't a brand new thing then, so I'm guilty of not knowing enough about it. So I'm really excited to chat with you, tell me about how working with that population has segued into entrepreneurism for you.
Gwen Martin Perryman:So like I said, I've been in the field for a while and I used to work when I first came out with my master's degree.
Gwen Martin Perryman:I worked with at-risk youth and I did in-home therapy. So I would go into the homes, I would work with the parents on how to address behaviors, I would work with the child on how to insulate or how to make better choices, how to change behaviors. So I would basically work with the whole family and the home. I went to a home one day and I'm sitting in this living room with the family, with the mom, and there's a child sitting in the middle of her living room and her living room was that type that was like that really hard, cold floor like what you would see in a hospital. So this child is sitting in the middle of the floor and you know, when you go into someone's home you're very respectful of the person and their space and you know I see this child and he's got like really dry, cracked lips. He doesn't look happy. He's very quiet, not saying a word. I asked the mom, I said hey, you know who is this, because I hadn't seen him before in the home and she said, oh, that's just my mom's foster kid. He has autism or something like that. Don't worry about him, we just ignore him. And I sat there again trying to respect her home and her space. I said okay. So we spoke for a little bit and then she had another family member come over and she had to excuse herself to go talk to that family member and before she left I said do you mind if I talk to him, if I see if he needs anything? Cause at this point he kept saying wah, wah, wah and she said I don't care, go ahead. So as she went off to talk to the family member, I went to the child and I sat down next to him and I said what do you want? And he goes wah, wah.
Gwen Martin Perryman:And you have to imagine this this baby about 10, 11, 12 years old and he's got the driest cracked lips that's the thing I remember the most and he's saying wah, wah. Oh, my gosh, yeah, the look on his face was just desperation and I, you know. I said do you want water? And he kind of lit up just a little bit Wah, wah. So I asked the mom. I said do you mind if I go in your kitchen and get him a cup of water? She says, yeah, I go in her kitchen, bring him a cup of water. He drank that like he hadn't had water in days. And he looked at me. He said wah, wah. Again, I go in the kitchen, get him another cup. He drank it and then that was it.
Gwen Martin Perryman:He didn't say wah for the rest of the time we were there and I just remember sitting there thinking, wow, all he wanted was water. And he didn't have the words to say it. They were ignoring him, I guess, because they figured that he couldn't, you know, speak. Yeah, and I kind of held on to that. I finished my session, I went back to my employer and I said to my supervisor I said do we have any, any kids with autism that want services? And he said I'll look for them. And I told him, I said, if you do, I want them. And I literally jumped into researching, learning. I wanted to know more about this diagnosis because I thought if there are other children that are dealing with what, he's dealing with and he can't even get the basic need met.
Gwen Martin Perryman:I want to help those. I want to be that voice. So I literally was autism from that point on, and this is before I went back to get my EDS and my doctoral degree. So that's what I've specialized in behavior at this point, and I have consulted for other agencies. I taught at Ball State in Indiana how to apply behavior analysis, which is the behavior therapy that we use, and I got to a point where I said you know what? I want to be able to help more, but I want to help my way. So that's how I jumped into entrepreneurship.
Gwen Martin Perryman:I started out with just 2014, just myself in a little room and I just did one-on-one with families, applied behavior analysis, and I had a lot of people that were driving from Anderson down to Fishers, which is where my office was, and I talked to my husband one night and he said you know what you should think about moving your services up to Anderson. You know, go where the need is. So we started looking for space and I prayed on it and in about 2017, found the perfect space, moved into the building. My mom was my receptionist. I had like maybe two therapists that work with me, but I kept working. I would work with a family, and then I'd bring someone in to help me and I kept doing that and somehow we got to this point. So when you ask me what was my road to entrepreneurship, it was service.
Gwen Martin Perryman:Yeah, I just wanted to provide a service.
Michelle Smock:Well, dr Quinn, that makes my heart want to explode. Like we spoke offline before we started recording and I had a general idea, but that story and the inspiration behind it all like just bringing it all full circle is so beautiful. So thank you for what you're doing and I'm excited to know that you're looking at our area as a potential for, you know, growth and expansion, because I know that you know for the service that you provide up in Indiana, currently there are just as many, if not more, families in this area who could benefit from you, so we're hopeful for that. So you were speaking about going from like back in 2014, just being you yourself and you to growing to where you are now. So now, currently, tell me again how many locations do you have? And, kind of like, what is your business looking like these days?
Gwen Martin Perryman:So now we have four locations, and this is all in Indiana Two in Anderson, one in Alexandria and one in Newcastle. And then we also have a diagnostic clinic that we recently added speech therapy to that. We plan at occupational therapy and mental health counseling for families as well. Within our four locations, not only do we provide the one-on-one behavioral therapy with our kiddos, but we also have a school preparatory program. So while they're getting the one-on-one behavioral therapy to help them decrease maladaptive behaviors like elopement, some of them have aggression hitting, biting, which if you're someone that you have no words to meet your needs or to let people know that, hey, I biting.
Gwen Martin Perryman:Which, if you're someone to have you have no words to to meet your needs or to let people know that, hey, I need this and you're trying and trying and trying and nothing's worked. Then sometimes it escalates to behaviors and at that point people are paying attention, right. So we help them to come up with more proactive ways and pro-social ways to meet their needs. So while they're getting the one-on-one therapy with our therapists, they're also participating in this behavioral preparatory program, whether it's preschool or school, we call it a preschool prep program, but they are participating in that to also learn how to function in settings with other children, with other people, how to pay attention to a teacher, how to sit in our seats, how to participate in activities. They're learning all of those things. Our goal is to be able to assist families from diagnosis all the way until they get into a typical school setting and they don't need us anymore. So that's our setup right now.
Michelle Smock:Are you able to work with kiddos who maybe were diagnosed previously but didn't receive the right types of assistance or right type of help? So you know, maybe they've been dealing with their symptoms and behaviors and things like that. Can you help them later into their diagnosis or does it have to be like early in childhood?
Gwen Martin Perryman:Yes, we can. A lot of our research tells us that our brain is most plastic. It's most able to absorb the most knowledge prior to age five. This doesn't mean that if we get to them at age 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, that we can't provide services. Sometimes it means that we have to go back and undo a lot of things, a lot of. We have to unlearn a lot of learned maladaptive behaviors. But that doesn't mean that we can't. We can't help them and we have done that.
Gwen Martin Perryman:The biggest thing to remember with the population that we serve is that every child is different. So while you may have one child who's nonverbal, who engages in just constant repetitive behaviors, super poor social skills, you may also have a child with the same diagnosis, that is completely verbal, that will talk and talk and talk and talk and talk, because they don't recognize the social skills of you know, when somebody stands up and goes toward the door, they're trying to let you know this conversation's over. They don't read those social skills. So you may have a child that talks a lot but just has really poor, poor social skills and can't function in recess or with other kids. So they're kind of loners.
Gwen Martin Perryman:The spectrum is really it's really big. So we are helping kids at various levels of the spectrum and, depending on when we get them, we know where to start. I think that's why I like behavior analysis so much, because it allows us to take behaviors because we all do behaviors and it allows us to take it and break it down to its smallest brick and work on that brick and then build it back up and build it back up. So because we address behaviors that way, whether maladaptive or increasing pro-social behaviors, we're able to help anyone. Behavior analysis can be used to help someone who's trying to stop smoking. I mean, it's a good therapy. It's a good therapy.
Michelle Smock:I feel like, I mean, I've been therapized you know and I feel like, if I'm remembering correctly, that is one of the tools in the toolbox that have been used to help with, like some addictive behaviors and things like that. So, yeah, I think that that's so wonderful to be able to utilize that tool, regardless of where they are, like you said on that spectrum of needs and also age ranges Wonderful. So you were telling me beforehand that you have a team of like a hundred or so folks working with you right now, so tell me about your team. I'm assuming it's like multiple different modalities of treatments and things like that. So who all do you work with currently?
Gwen Martin Perryman:So of course we've got our business side. You know, we've got our operations, we've got our billing team, we've got our human resources team. So of course we've got our business side. On the clinical side we have master's level clinicians that are licensed or certified who run our treatment and then under that licensed or certified clinician they usually have either an assistant, an assistant behavior analyst, or they have a program coordinator that helps them. But their job is to assess the child or the client when they first come to us. So their job is to look at every behavior. If the child is not speaking, their challenge is to figure out why. To figure out, is it in certain settings? Is it because there's one key skill? Because when you talk you know you're pushing wind, you're moving your lips, you're moving muscles. So in half the time they're also collaborating with a speech pathologist. Collaboration is very important. But they're analyzing all those pieces and then they start to put together a treatment again, like those bricks and help them build that skill.
Gwen Martin Perryman:There are therapists that work under that master's or higher level clinician and their job is to take all of those bricks, so to speak, and teach them. So the master's level clinician comes up with the plan, with the goals, with the objectives, and their job is to take that and work with that child one-on-one the entire time and their entire interaction is treatment. Even if it's to walk through a door and you have a child who's learning how to ask for things, they may stop at the door and say what do you want? And the child has to say open door. And then they open the door. But everything is about that child's growth and that child's treatment. So our team consists of those clinicians, those therapists, and then, in addition to the business side, other clinicians that help us stay on track. That tracks our data, that tracks our services, our quality, to make sure that the service we're providing is good service.
Michelle Smock:Yeah, Wow, that sounds like a lot to manage. A lot of moving parts. That's a lot of moving parts. So from the little bit that I know about you, I can tell that, like, you have like the empath heart and you're in this because of the people wanting to provide that service. So how has it been for you trying to like, reconcile, if you will, the clinical side, the therapy side, with, oh, and then I also have to deal with HR and billing and you know all of that. So how has that been for you, and is there any tools or systems or processes that you found that has helped make that bridge a little easier to cross?
Gwen Martin Perryman:It's hard. Yeah, I'll start there. It's hard because I'm still a clinician at heart. Like the whole purpose is to help it's service. That's always the foundation of what we're doing.
Gwen Martin Perryman:So moving over to this business side and having to deal with those things, I miss the interaction. But I was sharing with someone else that what helps me is, you know, while I'm dealing with the workers' comp issue or I'm dealing with a billing issue, or you know taxes and all that stuff, when it gets a little overwhelming, I stop and I go to one of our centers and I just kind of walk through and I see the growth, I see the smiles, I see the kids working hard, I see therapists there whose heart is about as big as mine and that just reminds me. This is why this is my why, so reconciling those. For me is learning and focusing on the business, growth and development, but also remembering why, and never forgetting why did I get into this in the first place? I think the other piece for that is for me is as we grow, I can't do everything. That's a very big pill to swallow when you're a doer.
Gwen Martin Perryman:So I got really good advice from a supervisor a long, long time ago who told me, if you are in a room with people who have different jobs and you're the smartest person in the room, there's a problem. And he told me what we have to learn to do is if there's like, for example, billing, you know, I know how to do that. However, I don't know how to do that. My goal is to hire someone who knows more, who understands the ins and outs and how to do it. They should know way more about billing than I should. They should be able to teach me something. Now I know enough to make sure we stay on track areas and then how to work collegiately with them, because, while I may be the owner and I may have the final say, I can't do it without them. So I think the biggest tool that I have is learning how to work with people and respect them as masters of their own areas, and that's how I get ownership and leadership from the people that work with me.
Michelle Smock:That's beautiful. I don't think anyone could say it any better. That's absolutely true. To make sure that the people on your team are the expert in their field and to not always have to have, you know, that feeling of superiority to say like, oh well, you know, I own it, I know more, or I know how it should be, or this is what I need or what I want. You know I own it, I know more, or I know how it should be, or this is what I need or what I want. You know, that's amazing. So is there any particular book, business-wise, that has had an impact on the way that you structured your business or the approach that you've had? I always like to try to bring out some little like nugget that somebody could go okay, that sounds interesting, let me see what that's all about. So are there any authors or books or speakers that have just really impacted you?
Gwen Martin Perryman:Yes, there's two and let's see one was about EOS.
Michelle Smock:I did not pay her to say that y'all. Oh, do you know about that? I talk EOS all the time. I love it so much. Yeah, we just met. She doesn't even know that I like'all. Oh, do you know about that? I talk EOS all the time. I love it so much. Yeah, we just met. She doesn't even know that I like EOS.
Gwen Martin Perryman:So, okay, great, yeah, eos is fantastic. Yes, that helped me a lot and I think the other book that kind of helped me, because the biggest piece for me in starting a business was knowing that I'm not alone. And what's happening here is something that it happens when you're growing a business. They don't call it growing pains for nothing, because you know sometimes it hurts a little bit, you know funding gets low or you know employee issues or what have you, but you have to be strong through those things and power through them and if you do the other side, you come out bigger and better than what you were before you went in. I think that's a big piece and there was a book that I read.
Gwen Martin Perryman:Oh goodness, I'll have to call you and give you that name later, but in Anderson there's a school, apa, anderson Preparatory Academy, and the person who started that and I can't remember his name because I'm trying too hard to remember yeah, no, that happens. But he talks about his story of when he started Anderson Preparatory Academy, from literally from conceptualization all the way up to he has a really and it's big but a school charter school in Anderson elementary, middle, junior and high school Amazing program. But reading his story because it was similar to mine. I mean, mine is therapy services, his was a school, but just the pieces of bringing in your staff and dealing with you know, funding issues and all of that. It was a great book to read to see that. Okay, he went through this. All right, this is normal. I'm good. Yeah, I can do this.
Michelle Smock:Oh, I love that, and that brings up something that we were talking about earlier that I just I love to remind everyone who's listening to the podcast and all of the women that we network with in the central Kentucky region is that not feeling alone is such a key to success and collaborating with one another and supporting one another and lifting each other up. So not to bash where either one of us are from or our past experiences, but more to just highlight the support that we're able to provide one another here in Lexington. So I'm not sure how you got connected with Raquel, but, like, of all the people in Lexington to be connected with when you're looking at potentially starting something here, right, she's definitely the one you know. But also, just like I just want to remind everybody that's listening that you know the things that we do that we don't think matter right, the little things that we do to support one another can make such a big difference.
Michelle Smock:You know, like you brought up reading someone's book and reading his story Like it's just as powerful to hear someone's story on a podcast or to see it on a Facebook post or read about it in a blog. So talk about what you're going through with one another, not to be like Debbie Downers all the time, you know, as I was, so hard, but like, remember that like we're all you know, we're all in this together. We're all struggling. There may be something that you're going through that someone might have a great piece of advice for you or be able to say oh, I went through something similar. Let me tell you how it ended for me, or a tool that I used to help me get through it.
Gwen Martin Perryman:Or just to say, hey, I've felt you like you're going to be OK, you know. So that's great. I want to read his book. It's a great book. I echo what you're saying, because that vulnerability and being able to share with others and say, oh, I dealt with that too, oh yeah, oh my goodness, I felt like that. Or to be the first to share, oh yeah, this was hard.
Michelle Smock:Yeah.
Gwen Martin Perryman:Or, oh yeah, I wanted to give up a couple of times, but this is what got me through. I think that vulnerability and being able to share with others, I feel like that's the thing that keeps us connected and lets people know that it's okay. It's okay to feel that way. I just shared with another provider, as I was telling you, just get into those moments where it's like this business side is so overwhelming, but then being able to share with someone else that it's overwhelming. But what I did was I go back and remind myself of the why, and that's what helps me to say all right, while I'm not one-on-one with the family, what I'm doing on this side is much bigger, because now I can help to build services to serve even more families, exactly, and that's the goal. So I appreciate you. I appreciate you saying that because it echoes with me. I'm so glad.
Michelle Smock:Is there and we can totally edit this out if I'm about to say something you don't want to talk about. But I don't know how open you are about your where you are in the exploration of the Lexington area for a potential like expansion or anything like that. Is that something that you can speak to at all, or do we need to keep that under wraps for now?
Gwen Martin Perryman:All I can say is it's been presented to me again I'm all about serving the need and it's been presented to me that there is a big need in this area for the services that we provide. So I want to meet that need. So where we are right now, it's just we're in the exploratory phase right now. So we're looking at all right, where is the need, how big is the need, which you know, I think it's there, yeah, I was there and looking at where, specifically in Lexington, is that need? So that's where we are now.
Michelle Smock:The logistics alone. I'm just like, as you were talking, I was like, okay, so you would have clinics there and then clinics, you know, three, four hours away, and you know how do you divide the team or how do you build a new team or like all of that is just, it's a lot. So I will definitely keep you in my prayers and hope that whatever is meant to unfold will, because I definitely know, like you were saying, I know that Lexington has a need. I'm new here and I already know that there's a need here, just from the people that I meet who have, you know, children or friends or family that are dealing with autism and feel like there are not the tools and resources available that they've had in other cities, for example.
Gwen Martin Perryman:So I just want to see these babies. I call them babies. They're all my babies, right, even if they're 18, they're still my babies. But I want to see our children, our babies have lives that are just as fruitful as anyone else's good quality of life lives, and sometimes the difference between that and going in a different direction is as simple as bringing in someone to say wait a minute, let's analyze that behavior and see what happened.
Michelle Smock:Yeah.
Gwen Martin Perryman:Like really it could be that simple and I want to be able to provide that. And then sometimes it's way bigger than that. We've got to work on this for a while, but I want to help, that's it. I just I want to help. I want to see families flourish. I think I shared earlier that divorce in parents of children with developmental disability is very high, because it's challenging.
Michelle Smock:Yeah.
Gwen Martin Perryman:And I want to help. I want to help those children, I want to help those families. It's the same way we talk about talking with other businesses about. You know, let me help you understand that, Let me share with you, Let me help you understand that this part of the business, growth, is hard, but if you stick with it, you know we can come out on the other side bigger than what we were before. Sometimes it's we say that to families that this portion is hard and it's okay. You know you're not alone, but I'm going to partner with you and we're going to come out on the other side together better than what you were before. And that's what we want to do. We want to partner with these families and help.
Michelle Smock:I want you to be able to do that in as many cities as you possibly can muster the strength for because I know that. I mean I can just tell by watching your eyes when you talk about this that it's a true passion and love that you have for these families.
Michelle Smock:Thank you for saying that. Yeah Well, I think that we're definitely going to be linking your website if you have for these families. Thank you for saying that. Yeah Well, I think that we're definitely going to be linking your website. If you have any social media places where people can find you or the business, we haven't even said the name of your business. No, yeah, what is the?
Gwen Martin Perryman:name of your clinics. So the name of it is Conduct Curb. Now let me tell you the story behind it. So conduct means behavior and curb means change. So the name of our company is literally Behavior Change, but it's Conduct Curb because it's kind of snazzy.
Michelle Smock:Yeah, it's got a little snaz to it.
Michelle Smock:Anything that's got. That alliteration is good in my book Awesome. So we'll link to the Conduct Curb website. I'll put your social media accounts in there as well and I just want to let everybody know, if you're in the Lexington area, if you know someone who might be a good connection. More knowledge she has, the more connections she has, the more easily she'll be able to decide if this is in fact a good transition or a good expansion or not. So if you guys are in any fields that may be helpful, absolutely Flutter inbox. Let her know how much Lexington needs her.
Gwen Martin Perryman:Please do, please do, I love to collaborate inbox.
Michelle Smock:Let her know how much Lexington needs her. Please do, please do. I love to collaborate, awesome, okay, is there any last word?
Gwen Martin Perryman:of wisdom or word of advice or anything like that that you'd want to leave everybody with, just to one. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to speak to the masses, but also I would just, if there is someone who's looking to grow a business, especially something that they're passionate about, do it, just do it. I think the best thing, the most beautiful thing about growing in your passion, is that you're never working. You're never working in a sense of I've got a nine to five to clock into Right. You're basically just doing what's in your heart to already do, and then, oh my goodness, did you get paid for that too? Right, you know? So if you've got a passion and you want to start a business, stop talking about it. Just step out on faith and do it. And then reach out to people like yourself. I love to empower others like myself for support and guidance. I know you do business coaching, so for support and guidance, reach out.
Michelle Smock:But just do it, just do it. And again, y'all. I did not pay her to say that, because my my little tagline is do it even if you're scared. Says it. Really. That is hilarious. Oh well, it has been so fun to talk with you. I'm so glad that you happened to be meeting with Raquel this morning and that she made the introduction for us and I was scheduled to record an episode with Raquel and she said you've got to talk to Dr Martin instead, michelle. So I'm just really, really grateful that that all happened and I wish you all the best of luck.
Gwen Martin Perryman:Thank you very much. All right guys, we'll talk at y'all later.
Michelle Smock:Thanks for listening. Thank you very much. All right guys, please take a moment to subscribe and review. It really would mean the world to me.